Thoughts on saints in christian myth

[Gregorius]

I dont personally get saints/sanctification do they just become part of the angelic hirarchy or are they just made up?

 

[Aeternus]

I dont personally get saints/sanctification do they just become part of the angelic hirarchy or are they just made up?

They are not made up. You see, the term Saint actually derives from the Latin word "Santus" with the Greek equivalent being ἅγιος (hagios) "Holy".

In Christian belief, a saint is a person who is recognized as having an exceptional degree of holiness, likeness, or closeness to God. However, the use of the term saint depends on the context and denomination. In Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, Oriental Orthodox, and Lutheran doctrine, all of their faithful deceased in Heaven are considered to be saints, but some are considered worthy of greater honor or emulation. Official ecclesiastical recognition, and consequently a public cult of veneration, is conferred on some denominational saints through the process of canonization in the Catholic Church or glorification in the Eastern Orthodox Church after their approval.

And, personal and even documented occult studies indicate that Saints are not made up. It's the gnosis and the special powers that enable them to be in an even stronger communication with Angels and the Angelic Hierarchy.

Saint Elijah has, for example, the power of Hydrokinesis and he can call upon the Tears of Heaven (the rain)

 

[Xenophon]

I dont personally get saints/sanctification do they just become part of the angelic hirarchy or are they just made up?

My own thinking is the Greco-Roman notion of "apotheosis" plays a big part in the mentality behind sainthood. Some mortals are so kick-ass, that they deserve a special spot alongside the angels. It's not a bad idea and one finds some admirable characters among the saints even by lights of the classicism the Church was supplanting.

Made up? Saints are canonized even today. Recently, the Catholics recognized the "first millenial saint." I'll get his name and post it. Scarcely made up.

Blessed Carlo Acutis, born 1991, died at age 15.

 

[Gregorius]

i was asking becuase my city also has like a somewhat big

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with remains and all
so i was wondering if i could call on him during any ritual

alsos orry i will be more specific in my threads from now on

 

[HoldAll]

It has always been a matter of whom the Church recognized as a saint - no official recognition, no sainthood. Apart from the co-opting of pagan gods (St. Brigid, for example), I think it was especially the martyrs that the Church liked to hold up as shining examples for common people to emulate, to hold on to their faith even when faced with certain death. It's what was expected of good Christians, so martyrs would get canonized as a matter of course.

Some saints have interesting backstories while others' are simply ludicrous or boring. Yesterday, for example, I was bord and looked up the saint the church up my street is dedicated to and found out that this 18th century priest was the patron saint of my city as well. He worked his ass off for the church and gave captivating sermons but wasn't exactly a giant of charisma and had a rather common name. No cult has ever developed around him, and hardly anyone around here even knows about him anyway. Totally useless for my own magical workings, I'd say.

On the other hand, I've also toyed with the idea of evoking St. Blaise for my chronic throat trouble because I took part in the

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as an altar boy on numerous occasions, so the equation St. Blaise = throat problem healing is etched firmly in my mind, esp. the crossed candles. This saint therefore has a magical meaning for me, and I guess it's the same with saints that are popular in the occult community like St. Cyprian or St. Expedite. I have also wondered if it was possible to use the

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in the same way Damon Brand uses twelve of the genies from the Nuctemeron of Apollonius of Tyana in his "Magical Protection", or maybe look into the Catholic Litany of the Saints if there was any structured system of protection or intercession discernible in it… there has to be some juicy lore connected with a given saint, it's not enough to pull one randomly from the calendar of saints.

 

[8Lou1]

i think its a wise idea to involve the saint. even if there are not many people at his shrine, there are often 'others' who hang out there. and since its a saint, the beings of the place should know the rules, which i find a calming idea. it keeps it neat so to say.

 

[Xenophon]

i was asking becuase my city also has like a somewhat big

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

with remains and all
so i was wondering if i could call on him during any ritual

alsos orry i will be more specific in my threads from now on

Which saint and which ritual? Catholics and Orthodox tend to have saints that specialize in this or that class of problem or profession.

 

[Gregorius]

Which saint and which ritual? Catholics and Orthodox tend to have saints that specialize in this or that class of problem or profession.

i linked the specific one in an embed but its Saint Boniface
And from what i could find hes just kinda a patreon of my city/germany in general

​

 

[Xingtian]

It has always been a matter of whom the Church recognized as a saint - no official recognition, no sainthood.

Not always, the formal canonization process seen in the Catholic Church is modern and most saints would have had a cult long before they were officially added to a calendar. And in the Orthodox churches that formal process has never been instituted; when a church synod recognizes someone as a saint it is seen as just official recognition of an established reality.

 

[Xenophon]

Not always, the formal canonization process seen in the Catholic Church is modern and most saints would have had a cult long before they were officially added to a calendar. And in the Orthodox churches that formal process has never been instituted; when a church synod recognizes someone as a saint it is seen as just official recognition of an established reality.

Of course, in 1969 Pope Paul VI demoted 93 saints, mostly because historical evidence for them was weak. The trajectory of the Roman Catholics has been to raise the bar for sainthood in recent centuries and to play detective vis a vis saints of old. I suppose, for a non ecclesiastical example, one can consider traditions about King Arthur. In legends, he is a powerful personality; historians suggest, though, that the biographies of several kings, warlords &c have been compounded together. I suppose one could suggest that such figures become egregores of a sort.

In this connection, there is the intriguing remark of Arthur Machen. "Documents can be and are forged; traditions, never.

 

[Xingtian]

Of course, in 1969 Pope Paul VI demoted 93 saints, mostly because historical evidence for them was weak. The trajectory of the Roman Catholics has been to raise the bar for sainthood in recent centuries and to play detective vis a vis saints of old. I suppose, for a non ecclesiastical example, one can consider traditions about King Arthur. In legends, he is a powerful personality; historians suggest, though, that the biographies of several kings, warlords &c have been compounded together. I suppose one could suggest that such figures become egregores of a sort.

In this connection, there is the intriguing remark of Arthur Machen. "Documents can be and are forged; traditions, never.

Machen should have known better than that. Did he say that before or after the Angel of Mons episode?

Post automatically merged: Jul 13, 2024

The dude was into Anglo-Catholicism, quite possibly the forgiest of forged traditions before Ukrainian nationalism or Kwanzaa

 

[Xenophon]

Machen should have known better than that. Did he say that before or after the Angel of Mons episode?

Post automatically merged: Jul 13, 2024

The dude was into Anglo-Catholicism, quite possibly the forgiest of forged traditions before Ukrainian nationalism or Kwanzaa

Now this is a good rejoinder! At Mons, every subaltern seems to have known someone who had a squaddie who had seen the angel. And, yes. I recall the Ami's Episcopal Church's literature doing handsprings to demonstrate how the Church of England actually predated St. Augustine's (of Cantebury, not Hippo) mission from Rome. A few baptized Brits were thus posthumously enlisted in Henry VIII's fit of pique institutionalized.
Well done, sir. I strike my colors and ask for quarter.

 

[pixel_fortune]

I dont personally get saints/sanctification do they just become part of the angelic hirarchy or are they just made up?

The specific element that makes someone a saint is that they can take your prayers to god or pray on your behalf ("intercession")

So, many of these people are exceptionally holy people who actually lived. No one except god can heal (according to Christianity), but a Catholic can pray to St Theresa (or whoever) to ask god to heal them, and St Theresa's word will presumably be more listened to than your own. People find it scary to talk directly to god: saints are middle-men.

The process for declaring someone a saint is pretty complicated and they basically have a "trial" before the Pope to debate the issue. (this is where the phrase "Devil's Advocate" comes from. The Devil's Advocate is a priest who argues against the person being made into a saint). You can only become a saint after death, so the potential saint has their own "lawyer" making their case for them. They have to prove they were holy in life and have performed at least one miracle.


Since angels are messengers, and can carry your prayers to god, or pray to god on your behalf, they are often seen as a category of saint, even though they were never humans. They are also middle-men


Saint = middle-man between humanity and god

 

[Xenophon]

The specific element that makes someone a saint is that they can take your prayers to god or pray on your behalf ("intercession")

So, many of these people are exceptionally holy people who actually lived. No one except god can heal (according to Christianity), but a Catholic can pray to St Theresa (or whoever) to ask god to heal them, and St Theresa's word will presumably be more listened to than your own. People find it scary to talk directly to god: saints are middle-men.

The process for declaring someone a saint is pretty complicated and they basically have a "trial" before the Pope to debate the issue. (this is where the phrase "Devil's Advocate" comes from. The Devil's Advocate is a priest who argues against the person being made into a saint). You can only become a saint after death, so the potential saint has their own "lawyer" making their case for them. They have to prove they were holy in life and have performed at least one miracle.


Since angels are messengers, and can carry your prayers to god, or pray to god on your behalf, they are often seen as a category of saint, even though they were never humans. They are also middle-men


Saint = middle-man between humanity and god

Could we say he's a kind of divine "macher" for goyim sinners? Squaring things with the Almighty, callling in a favor here, a novenna there? Though some saints (the weepy ones) seem more the schmoozer type.

 

[Sabbatius]

The basic notion of Saints and their basis for intercession came from the Christian text of the Letter to the Hebrews:

"Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."

As the Saints are the Cloud of Witnesses, in Heaven of course. They are able to intercede on our behalf, hence we are able to pray to them and ask for intercession on our behalf before the Throne of God- through Jesus of course.

 

[pixel_fortune]

Could we say he's a kind of divine "macher" for goyim sinners? Squaring things with the Almighty, callling in a favor here, a novenna there? Though some saints (the weepy ones) seem more the schmoozer type.

My theory (sociological not theological) is that it's to do with the fact that divine and magical hierarchies tend to mirror human power structures - and how did people, in the real world, get something done in a power structure?

Via social connections and quiet words on the side, right? Seeing if you know anyone who works at the department

In Sumerian religion, there's a tonne of spouses of gods who don't really have any independent mythologies, just a place in the family tree

My theory is they came about because when women wanted something done, they didn't go and make a formal petition to the male head of household - they'd go and speak to the wife in a social context, go around for tea, and ask informally if the wife can ask her husband. So it was a natural impulse not to want to approach a god directly, but to want to speak to their less-authoritative spouse

(That's speculation, I don't know much about Sumerian power structures at the lower-than-kings level)

I figure the saint impulse is the same

 

[Xingtian]

My theory (sociological not theological) is that it's to do with the fact that divine and magical hierarchies tend to mirror human power structures - and how did people, in the real world, get something done in a power structure?

I think in one or two episodes of the SHWEP there is a discussion about how the complex hierarchies (such as one finds in Iamblichus or Proclus) began appearing in Roman religion around the same time as the centralized imperial bureaucracy really took hold in society.

In Daoism it's quite explicit- though the details vary by sect, most of the gods are given some official position in a heavenly bureaucracy. In Beijing there's a fun temple/museum called Dongyue Miao that illustrates this really nicely, with each department of the underworld given its own shrine full of garish statues. They have titles like "The Department of Forest Spirits" and "The Department for Implementing Fifteen Kinds of Violent Death."

The Daoist's own authority derives from their position within the divine bureaucracy, which entitles them to command certain spirits depending on their level of ordination. Spells are often written out or pronounced like official decrees.

 

[pixel_fortune]

I think in one or two episodes of the SHWEP there is a discussion about how the complex hierarchies (such as one finds in Iamblichus or Proclus) began appearing in Roman religion around the same time as the centralized imperial bureaucracy really took hold in society.

In Daoism it's quite explicit- though the details vary by sect, most of the gods are given some official position in a heavenly bureaucracy. In Beijing there's a fun temple/museum called Dongyue Miao that illustrates this really nicely, with each department of the underworld given its own shrine full of garish statues. They have titles like "The Department of Forest Spirits" and "The Department for Implementing Fifteen Kinds of Violent Death."

The Daoist's own authority derives from their position within the divine bureaucracy, which entitles them to command certain spirits depending on their level of ordination. Spells are often written out or pronounced like official decrees.

The bit where I was getting pretty speculative is the idea that saints and minor gods spring up due to people (especially women) getting things done in indirect ways, "I know someone who works in the kitchens at the palace" or "ill make a social call on his wife" etc - ie subverting or going around the formal bureaucracy (which tended not to have many access points for women)

I just want to be careful to distinguish between when I know what I'm talking about and when I'm just guessing - I would love to know if you've read anything on that side of it though!